Peace is a Practice with Morgan Harper Nichols

Chase Jarvis: How can you find peace in your day to day living? How can you go through chaos and find the gems that are your creative process? What's up everybody it's Chase Jarvis. I want to welcome you through another episode of the Chase Jarvis live show here on CreativeLive, where I sit down with incredible people. And today's episode, we sit down with, Morgan Harper Nichols. She is an absolute genius, multifaceted artist. Started out in writing and poetry, music and turned that into what I would consider a global movement going almost overnight from 10,000 people following her work to now millions and millions.

In this particular episode, we learned things like how to find peace in doing the work that you love most, how controlling your breath is vital to actually being able to get what's inside of you out, how being calm is a strength. Also, all kinds of particulars around creative process, how to make money and orient yourself around that it's okay to make money doing what you love most. These topics, and many more. My conversation right here right now with Morgan Harper Nichols, including her new book called Peace Is a Practice. I'm going to get out of the way and let you enjoy the show.

Morgan, thank you so much for joining us today. Very excited to have you here. Welcome.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored, fan of this show, so yes, honored to be here.

Chase Jarvis: Awesome. Well, fan of your work as well, I shared with you already, but I might as well share with the listeners to get us started that just moments before we started recording, I was scurrying around the house looking for your book, your most recent book Peace Is a Practice only to find that my wife had hidden it and put it... not intentionally. But she'd picked it up and started reading it and it was in her purse and I'm running around Kate where's my book? So our household is a huge fan, are huge fans rather. And my wife is a Zen Buddhist practitioner in many ways, a mindfulness coach and teacher is especially attracted to your stuff.

Part of the way that I discovered your work was just a poem. And then I pulled on that thread and discovered your Instagram some time ago, where of course you have millions of fans and followers. But one of the ways I like to start the show is as you well know, is by asking the guest to describe themselves to the audience who you are, what you care about, what your focus is and life and or work?

So it's a great way for us to get to know you in your own words. So please accept my invitation to share with the listeners who you are, what you do, how you think of yourself, what are your self descriptors and then we'll be off and running.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you for that warm welcome. Well, my name's Morgan. I'm an artist, visual artist and also a music artist, and I'm a writer. I love to write poetry and prose. And I do a lot of different things, but honestly, pretty much all of it I can sum it up to I do a lot of things that would make six year old Morgan really happy and excited. And six year old Morgan was just like give me all the colors, give me all the ways to make something, all the materials I could find and what can we do? What can we make? What can we create? I've always been driven by that. And I feel like I kind of went through the past decade of my life of trying to really kind of find a focus within that.

So nowadays it looks a lot like a mostly visual art and written words and just finding different ways to connect with people in a meaningful way through art. So I do that through, I have an app, I also have a physical online shop where we sell journals and planners with my products on it. I do a lot of art licensing. So a lot of my art on products with other retailers and entities and I also write books. So yeah, a lot of it falls into those categories.

Chase Jarvis: I'm fascinated by the way that you opened with the description of that the six year old you would be so proud. Because when I think my own experience in talking to people beyond the show, but just people in life, I think, would say just the opposite. The six year old me would be so disappointed that I am a fill in the blank, I spend my time doing X and I really want to do more of Y. But I'm scared or I'm stuck and there's so many reasons, many of them very, very valid why we suddenly wake up one day and find that we have wandered so far off the path that we had envisioned for ourself. So I was wondering, how did you either stay on that path of being true to the six year old you? Or if you didn't stay on it, how did you reconnect with it as an adult?

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. It was a constant struggle back and forth between trying to find ways to kind of stay creative in some capacity. Because even though I may not have had the language for it, say like when I was in college or in my early 20s. But there was always something inside of me that knew. One, quite frankly, I was just terrible at math and science. So when I was in college and a lot of the... I was seeing my friends take business courses and things. And I was like, yeah, I can't do that so that's out. And then even with in college, I'm taking a psychology class and I'll never forget, I think I got a C in the class and I was so disappointed in myself because I'm like, wow, it's really starting to narrow down here.

A lot of the things that... And I struggled because I was like, I really enjoyed that class. I actually thought I did a good job. I thought I was retaining the information, but just the testing structures and all that, it just wasn't for me. I had the experience again, when I got to sociology and history, got a C in history. And I'm like, what is going on? I thought I was receiving information, I was getting excited, I'm like, maybe there's something here. And then as I'm going through my transcript, looking at the classes that for... I had A in English and I was like, that's interesting. I was like, that class was so easy, I barely even thought of it. I got a 100 in that class, perfect, perfect grade.

And I remember thinking I'm like, okay, there's something to that. There's something to... I'm looking at this transcript and my only As were, it was English and it was sociology. And that was just be because that professor didn't do traditional exams so I was able to. I think the final paper had a lot to do with the class, because I didn't even do that well on the test leading up to that exam. So I was like, okay, there's something to that. So there was these little threads of even when I felt like I was failing in other areas. So it was just a little bit of like, okay, I'm getting some positive feedback on the writing. And then as I got through school and as I grew and I graduated from college and I worked at the school that I graduated from as an admission counselor.

And I struggled with a lot of different parts in that job. Just operationally, it just wasn't my strength. But I graduated college at 20 years old. So I started college at 16, I graduated at 20. I was 20 years old in this position. Most of the people in that position were years older than me and had been in the field for years. But for some reason I got my boss to say yes to this. And I said, we need social media accounts as admission councilors. I was like, we're talking to prospective students, they're on social media. I was like, they're not checking their email anymore and this is in 2010. And so social media, the average person didn't even really have smartphones really back then, but it was just a thread. It was like, my boss said yes to this of all the other things I struggle with in this job, she trusted me to do this.

And she entrusted me to create a whole infrastructure for all of the employees to have Facebook accounts and Twitter accounts. And for many years they still use those accounts. So I ended up being at that job for two years and the position actually moved to a different part of the state. I couldn't afford to move with it. And from that point forward, it was just a lot of different variations of that. I ended up moving to Nashville to try to pursue a music career and financially it was just a real, real struggle. But at the same time, there was just enough. I was making just enough connections with people who were doing interesting things or who were affirming what I was doing in some way that it was like, okay, there's something here. So I think I just always had at it, but in the moment with it felt very chaotic and stressful because it was like, I need more than a thread.

I need a blanket, so I can sleep at night. These threads need to get woven with other threads. So it wasn't until late, late, late 2016 that I wrote my first poem, that I had written a poem just honestly. I like to say it was just a journal entry that ended up coming out in the format of a poem. And I shared that poem and that following January, it had been repinned on Pinterest over a 100,000 times. And that was kind of like, okay, more than a few people saw that at this time. That was the first time I saw a magnitude of people, a volume of like, hey, we like what you're doing, we connect with this. And from that point in early 2017 onward, I think that's where I kind of gained an awareness of, maybe there is more than one or two people, or just a handful of people.

Maybe it's possible that I can connect with people in a meaningful way, that not everybody has to connect with it, but enough that I can actually get into a rhythm and a flow and be creative in a way that feels right for me. So, yeah, that was a big shift when that happened, because it was just the sheer numbers of it was like, oh, wait a second. Okay, there's something here. So slowly but surely I started to take on freelancer projects. I started to experiment with having an online store and all those things. And I finally started to see it really, really coming together. And that took about two years of just slowly but surely figuring that out. And I'm married and my husband Patrick was working in construction at the time. And then he in 2019, his boss just called him one day and was like, hey, we don't have work for you for the next I don't know when.

And he was just like, I'll see you. Well, at the time I was eight months pregnant with our child and it was... I'm sorry, seven months pregnant. And then we were like, well, we need to figure something out. So he was the one that kind of took all these little things I started doing with freelance, started doing a little online, he's like, we got to do something more. We got to figure this out. So he actually went and created a Shopify store and he was like, we're going to sell art prints of the stuff you sharing on Instagram. And I was like, I don't want to do that. He was like, I think we're running out options, you should really consider it. So I told him, I was like, well, you go find this stuff. He went on Instagram, he picked out a whole collection, and I didn't like any of the stuff he picked.

And I was like, okay, fine. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. And we released those prints, we did tip prints. I think we bought 100 in total. And it was a site we found online, it was super inexpensive to start it. And we sold out of those prints almost immediately. Then we launched some stickers, they sold out almost immediately. And I was like, oh, I could have done this a long time ago.

Chase Jarvis: Thank Patrick.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, exactly. So from that moment forward, that was honestly like, okay, I can finally see all those little threads coming together. They're weaving together now, I'm seeing how the creativity can merge with the commerce. I'm seeing how it can turn into something so that we can for one, afford to take care of our child that's coming into the world. But we can take a deep breath and say, wow, okay, we're in rhythm here. So, yeah, that's kind of the cliff notes version of what that journey has been like.

Chase Jarvis: Well, I'm fascinated by it specifically the idea that while you were in it, I think you used the word chaotic, right? It felt chaotic. And I think that so many people who are listening or watching right now feel that chaos that you spoke of as they're in this rather messy process. Not just of exploring their art, but understanding who they are either adopting or issuing labels that they have for themselves or that others made on them. And I'm wondering if you can go a little bit deeper on that chaos and how you... Was it courage? Was it that you were bringing a child into the world? What were the things that helped you push through that chaos when, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but I have, from what I read, I understand just it's a lot of uncertainty in this time when we're discovering you think that maybe the... I don't remember where I read that about you, that you were talking about that process of discovery, and this is so common.

And yet I think most of the creators that see someone like yourself who is polished and has this great online presence and millions of followers, and they think it was just linear and it all made sense. But the reality is it only makes sense looking backwards. And when you're in the middle of it, it's chaotic. So talk about the times where you were able to pursue that chaos, or you found some thread of hope and doubt. Talk to me a little bit more about that.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. A lot of it is I've had to really slow down and think about that over the past few years. And what made it possible through all the chaos that I was able to just keep going and not give up. And I really do think a lot of it had to do with the finances. It had to do that I was struggling financially and I couldn't find... And my story's not unique in this way. A lot of people in my generation have struggled to find consistent reliable work. And I'm in that number. I'm a millennial, a lot of millennials have that story. And I mean, a lot of people in general, but it's kind of a hallmark even of our generation in some ways is finding steady and stable work.

And that was me. I had many moments where I was like, I would honestly just be okay, just having a desk job, knowing I had health insurance and knowing that I could do that. And then I'll just make my art on the side. I didn't even have that. I couldn't even get that part figured out. So even today I see a lot of people talking about like, oh, leave your job and go do some amazing thing. I'm like, hey, there's still a whole bunch of people who can't even get the job part figured out. It's not all everyone goes to this pipeline, oh, we have this nice salary job. And then someday we decide to leave it and do our own thing. Some of us can't even get the salary job part figured out. And that was my story. And there's a lot of anxiety that comes with that.

And I feel like we don't talk about that enough of like, when you don't know what this year's going to look like financially, when you can't say, I know how I'm going to pay my rent next month, I don't know how I'm going to pay my rent in the next three months. Or you're freaked out about, wow, one bad thing could happen and drain my little savings that I have. And that's a real problem that a lot of people face, and that's what I was dealing with in real time. When I was living in Nashville and I was trying to make my music career work, I was looking at how many little jobs I had to take just to be able to make a living to do it. And it was a real struggle for me because I was like, okay, I could do it.

I'm in my 20s, I got the energy. I didn't have a child at that time, I could do it. But I was like, even in my optimal state, there's a limit on how many jobs I can take. I remember taking this one background vocal gig, and I'm a singer and I'm pretty confident in my singing voice. I know how to sing, I know how to sing a lot of different styles and I could go into a vocal booth and just wear my voice out to help create a record. And then I'm like, okay, I get a paycheck at the end of the day. But then the next day, my voice is gone. I can't go do that again the next day, I have to take a break. So I'm like, wow, I just keep getting hit with all these limitations.

And no lie, I mean this so sincerely, I'm not just saying it because I'm on this show, but you were honestly one of the voices that helped me, I mean, it sincerely. You are allowed to charge for your art, you are allowed to earn as an artist. I might be paraphrasing, but you actually said something once very specifically about, you don't have to charge at a lower rate because you feel like, oh, I'm trying to... It's like no, charge. What is your actually figure that out? Figure out what that is.

So I was starting to trying to figure that out, but for a long time I wasn't there yet. I was like, there's something better, but I felt like I lacked maybe the business knowledge of really trying to figure that out. So yeah, a lot of the chaos, to answer your question, had to do with trying to figure that out. And it wasn't until I really had a long look at myself and really slowed down and said, yeah, you can't keep going this way. You've got to figure out what you're worth, you've got to figure out what your time's worth, what your energy is worth and start from there. So yeah, it took me a lot to work my way to that.

Chase Jarvis: I think this is so important for people to hear again, because the world that social media will have us believe is very different, that you had doubt and that you were exploring your own. I mean, you have managed to be successful in many different areas, singing, art, poetry, illustration, the licensing of your art into products. That is for someone right now, there's someone, an architect who's saying, man, I draw plans and sketch visions. But how does someone like Morgan find success in all these areas? So to hear that there was an exploration period, and I might even again, having listened to you and read a number of things about your background, say sort of there's this self discovery. What am I worth as an artist? What makes sense to me? I read a story about you being handed a guitar and hearing, I think you described it as a what sounded like or felt like a whisper from God that me and this guitar we're going to get to know one another or something like that.

So would you encourage or rather what would you encourage? Would you encourage exploration of a number of things? Going deep in a thing that... is financial considerations part of, it sounds like that was a big piece for you, the financial independence. But if you were going to be prescriptive, I don't want to ask you to do something you're uncomfortable with, but help people understand how to tap into and or find the one thing. Or we're told you have to do one thing well, but you've done so many things. So help us navigate that for a minute, because I think this is a very confusing topic and space for especially emerging artists to understand themselves.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, absolutely. I think the biggest thing that I would've done differently, looking back in all the stress and the chaos and the everything that I dealt with, I would have forced myself to nail down a number. And nail down how much do you need Morgan? Because the possibilities are endless, but you don't need everything. How much do you need to be able to say, I'm taken care of, I have food to eat, I have a place to live, I'm able to invest in the projects and organizations that I believe in, what is that number? And I didn't have it for a long time because I, especially, I feel like this happens a lot for people who may be in a lot of creative industries, sometimes it's hard because the possibilities are endless. You see people half your age making way more money than you've ever seen in your life.

So you're just like, how do I get there? It's like, maybe you don't have to get there. It's maybe what you need. It's maybe you have a sibling who's disabled that you want to help. And you're like, what does that number look like for me so that I can help take care of me, but also my sibling that I care about. Or there's this organization, this nonprofit that for my hometown that I want to give to, what does that number look like? So it doesn't always have to just be about paying rent and paying your phone bill, but it's like, what are your values? What do you care about? And I was not asking those questions. I was just like, what do I need to do to just be okay. And be in the industry and be in the flow and not have to worry about the thing.

And it's like, you kind of do have to worry about the thing, Morgan. You do have to slow down and say, what do you actually need? It's like there are times where I was comparing myself to people who had different values, they had different needs than me. And I was trying to get to where they were, but we didn't even have the values. It's like, I realized this when I recognized... It was something I heard Dolly Parton say. I've heard Dolly Parton say it and I think I've heard Mick Jagger say it. But they were talking about how much they love touring, they love being on the road. And I think I've heard Dolly Parton say I'm going to do this day till the day I die, I love touring. And I remember hearing that saying, oh my gosh, I actually don't like touring that much.

I'm like, I'm surrounded by people who love touring. I'm in a city where, I mean, literally at midnight in Walmart parking lots, all around Nashville, you see tour buses getting ready to go and travel all across the US and go on weeks and months long tours. And I was like, that's actually not my favorite part of this. I was like, my favorite part is sitting in the room and crafting these songs and bringing them to life. I was like, that's why I'm here. So I'm like, I'm literally sitting here comparing my workflow, my financial situation, to all these people who are in a very different place and who have different goals, who love touring. And I actually don't love touring like that. I actually prefer to be at home working on my craft. So that was the first part of it, is kind of setting some parameters for myself of exploration even, getting clear about I've got to look at people in my industry and I've got to see, oh, I actually don't want to do that, I want to do this.

And setting that parameter and say, so, yeah, I'm not going to set my goals around what it looks like to be a touring musician because that's not what I want to do. Even though I see that it's successful, even though I see people doing really well at it, I have to honor my time, my energy, and my capacity. And if I don't do that, I wouldn't even be able to sustain that anyway. So I think that's the biggest thing. It's like, there's a room for exploration and trying new things, but you do have to kind of be tough on yourself a little bit. And say , yeah, but I'm going to create some boundaries around what I actually even pursue and get to know myself and get to know what my actual energy is and what my capacity is. And, yeah, if I could redo it, that would be my focus.

Chase Jarvis: Well, please don't redo it because you've got to some incredible place. I mean, you've been a vocalist on several Grammy nominated projects, in addition to your huge social following, your financial success selling. Again, we're going to get to your writing, which is you have got a new book called Peace Is a Practice that I'm in a tug of war with my wife over right now. And you said something that I want to visit for a second, which is this idea of getting to know yourself. That was a huge part of the last couple of minutes of your advice. I also read what I think is a fascinating piece in the Arizona central about you becoming aware that you may be neuro-atypical and finding an autism diagnosis really late in life. That I think as I read helped you understand yourself a little bit more.

And so in the same context of understanding that you maybe don't like to tour and you want to work on your craft. How important these things that are extraneous that are beyond just the work, where in the case of the story that you've been very public about getting to know yourself in a different way. And starting to put some of these pieces together looking backwards. I'm wondering if you can to talk to that.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, for sure. Yeah, that is all connected because it is very... Getting to know yourself doesn't mean just you by yourself in a room. And what I am so grateful for with modern times is that we're talking a lot more about our health and about our mental health and how we function neurologically. And those aren't things that we have to just sit in a room by ourself and figure out it's like, it's possible that you can find professionals, people who studied this who can help you figure out what your strengths are. And that has been my story. That has been my story these last couple years, because I was on TikTok one day about end of 2020, I was on TikTok. And the TikTok algorithm started to show me videos of women who had been diagnosed with autism as adults.

And it's very specific video. And I was seeing several of them and I was like, wait a second that I actually makes a lot of sense for me. I was like, it sounds to me like they're saying my whole life story. And a lot of what they were talking about was just about, I mean, many different aspects of being autistic. But some of the ones that really stood out to me, one, was a lot of people were also talking about within their autism diagnosis they also had a sensory processing disorder. And things like loud sounds or bright lights have a great effect on them for hours on end. And I was like, wait, that's me. And even the thing I mentioned about not liking touring, I actually realized that the loud music that has played at shows and I mean, I had the opportunity to tour with artists in arena shows, the speakers that are as tall as buildings.

And I would get off stage sometimes ready to cry. And I didn't know why, I'm like, why do I feel like I could literally crumble right here and I didn't understand why. And I was like, oh my gosh. I was between the in ear packs and the big speakers, I was like, that's a lot of sound, my nervous system was fighting to hang on in those moments over something that was literally wearing me down. So it was things like that that I was like, oh my goodness, there may have been even more than just a preference thing. I was like, I think there's something deeper here as to why I was not able to thrive in certain settings.

Chase Jarvis: Especially when the world is telling you you're a traveling musician, you're making it, you're on the arena stage. And those disconnecting signals, right? You're getting from the outside, I'm on stage living the dream. And then you are as you said, ready to crumble at a moment's notice on the inside.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. I will literally get off shaking, I'm shaking and I'm fighting to keep a smile on my face. And I actually remember, I'll never forget, it was one... We were in Lubbock, Texas at the Texas Tech arena. It might not even be called that, sorry, if you were to Texas Tech and I just butchered that. The arena probably has a name, I'm so sorry. And I remember there's a bay where all the tour buses kind of are surrounded by this bay. And it was this huge uphill from the back end of the arena to get back up to the tour buses. And I remember walking up that hill fighting tears and the wind is just blowing, that west Texas wind. And I get on the tour bus and no one's on there and I just ball my eyes out and I didn't know why. I was just crushed.

And now when I look back at that, I was like, oh, I was in a room with loud music, blaring, blaring, blaring for two hours straight. And I didn't know that my nervous system was not equipped for that, I didn't know. And I just remember just sitting there, why am I crying? Why do I feel absolutely fricking miserable right now and not knowing why? So as I'm watching these TikTok videos, I'm like, whoa, wait a second. I'm like all those stories in my life that I haven't been able to make sense of, I think there's something here. So thankfully I was able to find a specialist here in my area in Phoenix. And one of the biggest distinctions is because I had in the past, I had actually reached out to, I had talked to my primary care physician a few years back that I thought it could be possible that there could be something going on neurologically.

And I was like, even my parents growing up had considered that, oh, there could be something here. But when I mentioned it to him, he just shot me down. He was just like, you're perfectly normal, you have nothing to worry about. So I had even had these experiences of, okay, maybe I don't need to go deeper, maybe there's nothing here. But yeah, in 2020, just finding those women who had had very similar stories to mine made all the difference. And I'm so grateful to say that it let me on a journey of discovery that I was never expecting I was going to be able to have. And it has brought me so much peace because even while I still have struggles, obviously, it's good to know what they are. It's good to have a name for those struggles. It's good to say, oh, okay, I actually know what my limitations are, I know what my capacity is, I know what I can and can't do. And that's made a huge difference in my life.

Chase Jarvis: This whole idea of what culture says to us or the labels either helpful labels like you understanding your diagnosis or unhelpful labels, how navigating that. And just if you're on stage, you're supposed to love being on stage because you made it, there's a million people. The same thing true with me with professional soccer, had the opportunity to play. And I'm like, I think I'm good. And the people in my life are like, how are you possibly not doing this? And I also like you remember coming to terms with myself like, no, this is actually... When I make this change and there was just a sort of was settling in. And you used the word a moment ago, peace, which I think is the perfect transition to talk about your new book, which is called Peace Is a Practice. I'm holding it up here, for the folks who are listening you don't get to see the cover.

But A, congratulations, it's absolutely stunning. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what made you write the book. And then we'll talk a little bit in more detail about these practices or first, the concept that peace is actually... it's a process, it's a practice. It's not an end state for example, and some of the ways to get it. But the word peace, this tranquility, when you settle into who you are, as you just described, there is sort of a reassurance. And people have felt that when you have been holding onto a story and you then share it. Or you've been telling a lie, and then you tell the truth. And there's this sort of this like a comfort that washes over us. I'm wondering, talk to me about why you wrote the book and then we can transition into some of the benefits and some of the specific tactics that you would recommend for people who are looking to have a little more peace in their life.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so I wrote this book right in the middle of my diagnosis process and that wasn't the plan. At first, I had an opportunity with my publisher to write a book and I knew it was coming, but I didn't know that I was about to go on the several above the journey of being diagnosed with autism. And it ended up being just timed at the same time that I'm literally having to, through my diagnosis process of looking back at my whole life. And there's a lot of grief and a lot of sadness, to be honest, when I look back, when I look and see things that I struggle with for a long time. A lot of time alone, didn't ask for help, didn't know how to ask for help. And there's some grief and sadness there. And at the same time, I was able to see that those struggles also taught me that I could learn how to breathe through it.

And I could learn how to practice, finding ways to take deep breaths and missed all the things that I couldn't understand. And it led me to this image of a river that... I'm just a very visual person, sometimes I'll just have a random thought. And then I'll just have a mounted appear. I'm like, I'm just going to go with it. Let's just see what the mountain's about. And that was a river. And I was like, wow, it was almost sort of like, there's this river that's been flowing through my life, this constant flow of like, hey Morgan, you matter, you have something to say. Yes, you're struggling, but you're still here, you're still breathing. Even when you failed, you're still breathing. You're still here, inhale after exhale. You keep existing, you're still here. You still keep making meaningful connections, finding amazing songs, encountering art, encountering sunsets, encountering relationships, all these things that make life worth it.

And everything that isn't figured out how amazing is that. And then I started thinking about this old song that I grew up listening to, it's called It Is Well With My Soul. And the first line of the song says when peace like a river attendeth my way and it made me think about, wow, isn't that fascinating? Because the guy who wrote that song actually wrote that song going to go meet his wife after their four daughters had just drowned on the very ocean that he was traveling on. And I was like if he was finding peace like a river, I wonder if that's what peace is. Peace is something, it's not this little globe that we can kind of hold in our hands and say, okay, I have this perfect version of peace in my hand and I'm going to hold it and keep it forever.

It's something that you have to go through the wild to find like a river. And it's different than something that we just all see every day. It's something that we have to slow down and go and search for through the wilderness of our own lives, to find that freedom to breathe, even when the worst things happen. And I'm like, yeah, I've never known grief like what Horatio Spafford has known, the one who wrote that song. I was like, but I have known struggles in my own life. And I have known that when I look back, I can see that there has been room and freedom to breathe.

So peace is freedom to breathe and it's something that we can practice finding every day of our life. And I wrote this book because I was like, hey, look, I'm not an expert, but I do have a lot of experience with trying to find freedom to breathe in my life because I just spent a whole several decades with undiagnosed autism. And yeah, I've got some things I've learned. So I was like, I want to help other people find those practices in their lives. So that's what this book is about.

Chase Jarvis: Well, thank you for writing it. And it's so timely. It seems like because we're in an information age and we are bombarded with something like 100 times the messages that people received in a day just 10 years ago through our phones and media landscape and just new technologies as an example. If anyone's wondering the power of breath, we take blood pressure pills and there's all kinds of external medicine that can help us control those things. But almost 100% of the time, if a human being can find one minute to breathe deeply, one's blood pressure is reduced like that, very consistently.

And the simple fact that breathing can directly correlate and directly affect your physiology, the simple act of breathing deeply, this is something I learned some time ago and it was my wake up call. Of all of the things we can do to change the trajectory of our neurology or our heart rate or our blood pressure or the simple act of breathing deeply is very powerful. So to that end, can you give us some practical resources, some ideas and some constraints about the practice? You call it the very opening chapter is Peace Is a Practice. But since we were talking about breathing, what are some of the techniques that you recommend that you've experienced that you write about that our listeners just could pick up in a moment and start to experiment with, or experience themselves?

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes. What I have found in just my own research and just looking for things that can help me is one, just engaging in intentional breathwork. And engaging in practices that help us kind of mindfully restore. And I use the word restore because it's like we're born with this capability of breathing mindfully, but the busier life gets the more complicated it gets, we forget. So I actually reference in my book, another book, it's called Breath by James Nestor and he gets into the science of breathing and what we can learn from other cultures, from ancient cultures on breathing. And I start with that, but I don't stop with that. Because one thing that I found is that depending on how you're kind of oriented in the world and what you may hear or research or read yourself, a lot of people are familiar with oh, yeah, I should incorporate some kind of breath practice or breath work into my life.

And what I found is that breathing helps us be in our body. And there are many other aspects of being in our body that get neglected. And breathing, it's an invitation to explore those other areas. So one thing that I explore in the book and I write about, and I give very concrete examples and different researchers and people who've studied this, are different ways that we can incorporate all of our available senses. And I say available senses because sometimes everyone doesn't have access to all the same senses. But how can we incorporate, smell, hearing, touch, taste to help us be in the present moment? It's not just an intellectual thing, it's a bodily thing. And our modern times oftentimes takes us out of our bodies very fast, because, like you mentioned, we have to do so much intellectual work on a daily basis to just answer all those emails coming in, to just try to function with all these bright artificial lights in our house.

So one example that I give in the book, I share something that a journalist practice with some researchers, and that is just exploring the effects of artificial light in our lives. And really reevaluating that and really questioning not just... It's like a lot of us probably grew up hearing turn those lights off so you don't run up the electric bill. But it's even beyond that, it's like turn those lights off because what is that doing to us that our biological clocks are being kind of recalibrated based on the fact that the day no longer ends when the sun sets. And these lights just stay on and we're not even able to slow down and rest in the way that we need to, because we have lights everywhere all the time.

So I'm not the kind of a person who lives in the house with a whole bunch of like 12 foot skylights or anything. So sometimes it's hard to kind of get that natural light. So one practice that I give, which is inspired by us and we did research that I reference in the book is I like to have a lot of candles around my house. And one thing that I'll do is when I sit down to work, especially in the evening, I'll light the candle. And not a big five wick candle, just a one wick candle. And what I notice when I light that candle, I say, when that candle is at a point where it needs to be blown out, that's when I'm going to go out. And that's when I'm going to leave, that's when I'm going to take a break.

And it's fascinating. I've been practicing this, it's been helping me actually slow down a little bit more because that candle can only burn for so long. Lights can burn for thousands and thousands and thousands of hours, but we are not fluorescent lights, we are not light bulbs. We're a lot more like that candle, we can burn bright for so long but then we need a break. We need a break. So, yeah, that's just one small thing that I like to give people because I'm like, it's so simple. It's like, get a candle, light that candle, let that candle be a symbolic reminder of how you can intentionally slow down and take a break.

Chase Jarvis: Well, thank you for referencing James Nestor's work. He's been a guest on the show, we spoke about his book. So we'll highlight that in the show notes here for our guest. I did notice that you referenced that and I think it's full circle moment here. I love it.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Welcome.

Chase Jarvis: Yeah. When did you start using the word peace to describe the inner feeling that you were attempting to cultivate? Because presumably there's all kinds of words and as someone who writes as well as you do, you have vocabulary at your fingertips. Could it have been lots of other words or was peace, was it very clear that what you were seeking was peace? And just curious how you landed there or was there outside some tradition that you were referencing or why peace? And why have you hung so much of your, in this most recent book, hung your hat so to speak on the concept that peace is rejuvenating and connecting and powerful. Why peace and not something else?

Morgan Harper Nichols: Absolutely, I love that question. So I'm going to get a little nerdy and a little specific here.

Chase Jarvis: Let's do it.

Morgan Harper Nichols: So I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, just a community slightly outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And I grew up in a African American Christian tradition where I observed this as a kid, my parents are actually pastors and I observed this from a lot of people that included is that there is within the tradition that I grew up in, there is a tradition to find meaning and definition for things from songs and from art. And it was not unusual to hear a sermon or someone preaching and referencing a song as a way of bringing the point home. So in modern times because I've gone to school and I have tons of respect for academia if I'm going to reference something, it needs to be something in a book I need to cite it and put it in a particular format.

And that's how I can define things. But what I've learned when I've looked back at my childhood, I was like, what I was actually learning was how to define things from embodied experiences, from singing songs and listening to songs. So that song I mentioned earlier, It Is Well With My Soul, that first line, peace like a river, that was the start. Because from a young age, I would hear that referenced in messages, I would hear that brought into the fold of trying to communicate an idea. And that to me, it stood out to me as, oh, that is the definition. Peace is something in nature and peace is something that I can, when I am a little kid who's feeling really overwhelmed and I can go outside, I don't see a river, but I imagine what could exist in this landscape.

So a lot of... even for me with bigger words like God, as a young kid, I always associated God with creativity because I grew up singing songs about God creator. And I was like, oh, I like to create, okay, that makes sense. And from a young age, it was very literal for me. It was peace is something I associate with nature, places that help me calm down. And I believe that as I've grown older, I've just evolved that. And that's something that I'll always hold onto because there is a pressure sometimes when you're a writer to define things in the "correct way," it's like, okay, well, what's this in the Latin? What's this is in the Greek. And I appreciate that and at the same time, I also want to honor what I came from and my own tradition of how maybe those songs that defined that feeling is actually how you define it.

So for me, that's where that started. It started at a young age and I feel like I've just nurtured that more and more. And I want to hold onto that. I'm like, yeah, peace is a river, peace is being good nature.

Chase Jarvis: I love it. What made me want to ask that question was reasonably early on in the book, maybe the first third or something. I'm actually just flipping here and it's on page 32. The way that I talk about it and since you're with my work, I talk about creativity is not moving to Paris and dawning a barret, and smoking the cigarette, and getting a new set of friends and having to stop your job as an accountant or it's not those things. It's not what you think it is. And I was touched in this particular part of the book, when you talked about what practicing peace is or is not.

And you describe it, I'm just going to read for a second here, "Practicing peace is not everything's okay, I promise. Practicing peace is not, I'll be fine, don't worry about me. Practicing peace is not, yeah, I just want everyone to be happy. Practicing peace is I'll just stay out of politics. Practicing peace is not, I won't mention what bothered me. And practicing peace," you justify, "Is saying things like, it's hard to say this, but I'm not okay. Practicing peace is this is not easy for me to ask, but I do need your help. Practicing peace is recognizing that you can no longer live to please everyone."

And that's, again, it seems like there are many different words that we could have chosen. But this idea of peace, the pictures that you painted with the river and forest and nature, the combination of those ideas plus the breath work to actually achieve peace. I'm wondering, is there a correlation between that and truth for ourself? Because when I hear someone speak truth and maybe this is part of the tradition that you come from, or it's I know this is my... When someone says something and you know it to be true, you're like, mm-hmm (affirmative), what that person said, that's the sound of truth right there.

And I'm wondering is peace correlated with truth in your world? And this is obviously, I am grasping at something right now because when I was reading this, like, gosh, it just... When you feel peace, you feel a certain way, when I hear truth, I'm like that, what she said.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah. I think there is a correlation there because I do think that peace, and this is why I like to define peace as a practice, something that is experience. Not as just the object, the thing. It's a whole experience and it's an experience that leads you to a deeper place. It's like the more you're present in the moment, the more you're present to where you actually are in your life, in your mind, in your body, your heart and your soul, the more you're present, the more you start to uncover what's really true.

And the more you start to see, yeah, this is where I'm actually at right now. But we can only get there from slowing down. And I think that's why kids are always known for kind of telling it like it is. And just like they haven't learned how to sugarcoat things. They're just like, this is what I think, you asked me, this is what I think. And I think a lot of that comes from like, they're able to get to the truth so fast and say, hey, here's what it actually is because they haven't learned all those ways of creating all these stories and narratives that think into the past, in the future. And what are the implications if I say this and what are the implications if I say that? They're not thinking but they're present to the moment and saying, this is what it is. Just this morning, I was driving my son to his grandparents' house, my parents' house.

And he's two years old and just everything is just like, oh, this is a red light. I'm like, yes it is. And this is another red light. I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, I did it. I'm so glad that you present in the moment, but we've identified three red lights now, I think we're good. We've established that we are hitting red lights. But he's so present that he's like, this is what's true in this moment, this is what's true. This is red, this is green, this is someone walking by. Now, we're slowing down at the yellow. It's all very in the moment. And I think the older we get the harder it is to get back to that place. So we have to be passionate and we have to really kind of force ourselves to say, hey, we need to slow down so we can get back to what's true.

And I love that you said that. And that's something that I honestly, I spend a lot of time thinking about whenever I'm communicating with people in my audience, especially in my community, because especially I'm like, I don't know this person. And especially when it gets to typing things online, a lot of context and nuance can get lost. So a lot of times I even, I slow down and I say, okay, if I want to respond to this person in a meaningful way, I have to get down to what I know to be true in this moment. And what I know to be true is that this is a human being and you need love and you need support and in need of knowing that they matter. But I only get there if I slow down and I give myself permission to say, hey, we're just going to breathe through this for a moment, and we're going to spend some time practicing getting to that place so, yeah.

Chase Jarvis: Spoken. There is a fair bit of recognition in the book about regret. And I'm wondering if you could talk about it. To me, this is a topic that I was totally, I would just say ignorant of or disconnected from, or I don't know what the right set of words are. But it doesn't make me want to not ask the question. Because as you know, in getting older and more familiar with deciding to walk through this door is making a choice not to walk through other doors. And I try and live regret free, which this connects indirectly to this idea of when you're sort of living peacefully, when you're aware in the moment, when you're speaking truth, it seems there's a inverse correlation to regret, right? The more I do this, the less I regret.

And when I have lived inauthentically or said something that I truly didn't believe in order to elicit a different set of experiences to relieve myself of the burden of having to stand in that truth or be authentically me or whatever. I'm wondering how did you come to be able to write so beautifully about regret? And if you would be willing to share some of the thoughts, of course, again, you really need to get the book Peace Is a Practice to get all of this. You used the word cliff notes earlier, talk to us about regret because the way you write about it is very powerful.

Morgan Harper Nichols: So yeah, early in the book, I actually write about something that is very... It's heavy on my heart because I'm actually, most days I'm kind of like you. I'm like, no regrets, okay, I want to film all that stuff, let's just keep going. I try to stay in that, I really, really do. But because I have really positioned my work, the work that I do and share with the world, I've positioned it in a way that I'm sharing a lot of vulnerable things. And I've encountered a lot of people who have messaged me in those moments where they too are not quite at that no regrets, I'm moving forward. And they're like, oh, I think I really messed up. I think I really missed out on what was meant for me. I feel like I went the wrong direction.

And a lot of times the stories that people are sharing with me are far more intense than what I've been through. So that for one, it keeps me in check. It keeps me in check to even think about on those days where I'm just like, yeah, no regrets. I've learned from all that stuff, I'm empowered, those mountains and valleys are behind me, let's keep going. On any given day when I'm feeling that way, there's someone else out there in the world who experienced someone passing away in their life and they're opening their phone. And they're seeing that text, and that last text message that they didn't respond to. And I'm like, yeah, I haven't experienced that. So I'm very cautious even about how I write in a way that I want to make space for those people, because I'm like, if I am in the present moment, if I'm somebody who believes in being in the present moment, I have to consider that for some people, the present moment right now, it is absolute chaos.

It's hard to be in the present, because it just really sucks right now. So even when I write very early in the book about remembering certain moments in your life that are multi multifaceted and how you remember that night that you had with someone that you really loved. But you also remember that that was the last night that you had with them. And I share, and I really spell out these examples because this is what I've been hearing from other people. And when people respond to what I share, even just in the comments sections, I'm like, wow, I didn't even think about that. And I've even had some people, and I'm grateful for people that do it, there are even some poems that I don't even share publicly on social media anymore. Because I received messages from people that are like, hey, actually this particular message doesn't apply to someone who's trying to leave an abusive relationship.

And I was like, you're absolutely right. And I was like, I don't even want that to be misconstrued. So it's not that I'm trying to say something for everyone, but I am aware that all kinds of stories are interacting with what I share on a daily basis. So for me, it's like, even though I personally, when I'm in the best state and I am not even thinking about regret, I always want a hold space for those people that are. And that's why I try to dispel those different examples out throughout the book of like, hey, I recognize you might be in a really tough spot right now. And even if it's something I've never been through and I don't have the specific answers for you, I want to acknowledge it, I want to spell it out. And I want to let you know that you're still free to breathe through it as you seek out the love and support that you need so yeah.

Chase Jarvis: I want to talk about your process for a second. We've been talking about the actual definitions, the framework that you've created for your work and your writing. And yet I was fascinated to learn more about your process of reading stories of others and then writing to them from that perspective for them. Can you talk us through that? And then I'm interested in both the conceptual creative process where you're taking stories, I think that's a fascinating thing for people out there to understand your process. And also your digital creative process, how you write, what time of day? And I noticed you've talked about designing on an iPad pro rather than... And I see behind you for those folks who are listening, I'm sorry, you can't see. There's some beautiful paintings and art artwork behind Morgan so clearly you do more than digital, but just walk us, orient us. I'm always fascinated by the stories behind the stories so share with us if you would.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah. So I don't know how other... All I know my old creative process. I'll just explain how it is for me.

Chase Jarvis: That's what I want.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah. For me, I have to have something that anchors the work. Something that it's like, okay, from all these different angles, I've got all these different mediums, all these different materials that I use, I have to have something that brings it together. It has to be and I came to that from a place of I was starting to share my poetry and I was starting to kind of experiment with visual art just as kind of a hobby and just kind of passively sharing it. This is after I was sort of trying to transition out of music, but didn't really know what I was doing yet. And I was just starting to kind of share it passively, but there was a level of anxiety there. I felt like I was kind of all over the place. I was like okay, I'm doing a little bit, I was literally doing some spray painting in the backyard.

And I also was on my iPad. And I also was trying to do a little bit of photography. And I was like, this is just like it's kind of fun in the moment. But at the end of the day, I'm just like, what am I doing? The house is a mess, I've got all these materials all over the place, what is going on? So in 2017, at the end of the year, I was like, you know what? It was October, 2017, I was like, you know what I do, what does keep me going back and even though I'm trying all these different things, I was like, it's when I receive messages from people about what I've shared. And they're like, this spoke to me and here's my story and what I've gone through and why it spoke to me.

I was like that helps me focus like no other, because suddenly it's about a real person. It's not about just these random followers or people out there that just may or may not connect with what I'm sharing. I was like in that moment, it's about just connecting with a real person. And I was like, that is when I feel like I have some of the most focused energy, is when I know I'm speaking to a real person. So I was noticing with myself, I was like, you know what, for whatever reason, just the way I am, I overthink an Instagram caption or sharing my work. But I was like, I don't overthink when someone is sharing their story with me and they're saying thank you for sharing this, here's what I've been through. I was like, my response to them feels very natural.

I was like, my inner critic is a little bit quieter because I'm just talking to one person. It's just a conversation, I'm talking to one person. So I was like, oh, I think I need to flip this. I think I need to make my creative process about conversation and make my creative process about how I can just focus on communicating with people. And then social media and all that other stuff is just sharing what I already did. So I was like, I need to find a way to just keep talking to people and connecting with people in a meaningful way, because that's what's fueling this, that's what fuels me. So I posted on my Instagram stories. I said, hey, I want to invite you if you want, share your story with me in my DMs and I will respond with poetry and art.

I'm not going to share your story publicly, but I'm going to respond to you with poetry and art and I'll send it to you before I share everywhere else. And this will just be something that you'll just forever know was inspired by you and I having this interaction. At the time I think I had, I don't remember exactly, but at the most 10,000 followers, somewhere in that range. And it wasn't even really that engaged, it was kind of like it was for music. I had kind of built a little bit of following. So not a lot of people... I actually was getting a lot of unfollowers when I was first starting to share art, cause people we were like, what has she been doing? It was just all over the place. But I woke up the next day with hundreds of messages from people who didn't even follow me, who had no idea.

They're like, hey, I heard that you're just listening to people's stories. And I don't even know if you're going to open this message, but I just need a place to let this out. And I looked up one day and I was making way more art and sharing way more of it. And then it started to look like an art style and it just came from person by person, one by one, letting that be the focus. And then having that focus gave me the permission to do a little spray paint here, do a little acrylic here, do a little digital art there because it was all focused on the final format of that is eight and a half by 11 image that I sent to someone here is a poem and a piece of art that I created with you in mind.

So that gave me permission to just try all these different things. And I'm still doing that. Right now, I haven't really shared any of it yet, but I'm working on 3D art right now. And I think of it in the same lens. I'm like when I render that final graphic, when I render that final image that is created with one person in mind. And that gives me permission to explore with all these mediums.

So I think it's kind of this twofold thing of, I always try even when I want to explore a new medium or I want to explore something different. I'm like, what is the goal here? What is the main focus? And for me, it has remained one person at a time, I'm still doing that, I'm still writing with one person at a time. And sometimes I'm sending it to them directly. But sometimes I'm just, for instance, when I'm writing a book, I had a very clear image when I was writing Peace Is a Practice. The entire time I was writing this book, I had an image of a freshman in college who had no friends.

That's who I wrote the book for. It was a very specific person and I've never met her. I don't know who this exact person is, but that's who I wrote that book for. When I would get stuck, when I was having writer's block, when was like, oh my gosh, who in the world let me write another book?

Chase Jarvis: You're actually paying me to do this?

Morgan Harper Nichols: I know, I have that one image. And I use that as a guiding principle for all of my projects. It doesn't matter how big it is. Even, I mean, I have some collaborations rolling out where we have 20 different skews of products that we've created. And even then I'm like, who is this for? I absolutely have to know who is it for? And even if other people I'm collaborating with, even if that's not how they think, I let them know, for me, I've got to be there. I have to. It is practically a spiritual practice at this point. I'm like, I have to slow down and think about who is this for?

So that is the guiding principle for my creative process. And one other little thing I'll add is that as I kind of evolve more and more with my art, sometimes that who is that for? And it's becoming more and more that sometimes it's myself. I recognize, oh, I am writing this for 16 year old Morgan, that is who this project is for. It's to honor 16 year old Morgan, it's to honor six year old Morgan, it's to honor the present day Morgan. So yeah, who is this for?

Chase Jarvis: Well, this it's fascinating because I think most people, especially artists earlier in their careers where they're looking to find their voice, so to speak, there's a compulsion that if you can avoid this compulsion you're wise and great and brilliant. But most people that I know cannot, which is you have a longing for your work to connect with other people. And what that translates into is writing sort of ambiguously, trying to capture every one, trying to rope your arms around as many people as possible. And I think it's incredibly powerful to hear you that starting at 10,000 followers now having two million followers through this specific process of writing for one person and is actually, that was the thing that... Potentially there's lots of things, but that was one potential major factor in seeing not just growth in numbers, but more so a measured connection because people were connecting with the work. And if you write for one person, you're like, well, first of all, you got a lot of material, right? There's seven and a half billion people.

Morgan Harper Nichols: I know, it's so fascinating. And, well, I'm trying not to be that person like in my book. But I really did fill this book with all the stuff that I just wanted to nerd out about. I was like, this is what this phase is for. I'm just going to nerd out about all the specific things. And there is a famous, famous writer who wrote the book Ulysses, which is just this super, super thick book. Which full disclaimer, I have not read the whole thing, but James Joyce, the author of that book he talks about the concept of the universals and the particulars.

And I just stand by that completely. And sometimes it gets really hard because the world is noisy and it's like, yeah, having two million people follow is a lot of pressure. I feel that pressure. I feel a responsibility with that. And at the same time I have to remember they are all individual people with individual stories. And if I could just speak to one person, it's that specificity, it's that moment that ends up connecting with more people.

Chase Jarvis: Yeah. This is not the exact quote, but the concept that Morgan's referencing is concept of in the particular lies the universal. So by writing about one particular person, it turns out that the human experiences wildly, everyone's got their own version of it. But some of these core underlying principles are universal. And the more depth that you can cultivate through that experience so many... not everyone's going to have experienced homelessness or disconnecting with their parents or siblings or the loss of a loved one. But we all understand that that is very much a part of the human condition and there's this... Yeah, that's a brilliant insight. And when I learned about your process, I was like, of course, I mean, it's so natural and you start to be able to see it in your work.

I find myself thinking about the people whose DMs you were reading when you wrote that. Not dissimilar to a dear friend of mine, Brandon Stanton, Humans of New York. He has pictures of these actual people. You're like, wow, that person's going through that thing. And yet you've done it with color and words and all these different media, spray paint as you mentioned, acrylics, digital art. I'm so grateful for your time. And I do want to congratulate you again on Peace Is a Practice. This is full of wisdom and grace, and it's very powerful, a very powerful concept.

So this is a call, our readers know that when I'm recommending a book like this, that we will rally around you in this your publication work here. We are here in February, 2022, but these principles are universal. I want to say, thank you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for saying nice things about this community at the beginning, that you've been tuned to the work for a long time. Where would you steer folks aside from picking up Peace Is a Practice? Where would you steer our attention to get more connected to you and your work outside, of course of your multi-million following Instagram handle, which is Morgan Harper Nichols. Where else would you steer us?

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yeah, so kind of a passion project that is ever growing that I'm working on is my app called Storyteller. And that is just a space where I have just been kind of nerding out on what would it look like on these devices that we use every day to just have this one contemplative peaceful moment in the day where you could just reflect on something to help you grow on your journey and tell your story. So it's a app that sends out daily notifications and artwork that I've created as well as my poetry and prose, words of the day, journal prompts, all that fun stuff and the affirmation. And I pour a lot of love into that project. I'm very, very proud of it and it's available in the Apple and Android app stores called Storyteller.

Chase Jarvis: Awesome. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show. I'm grateful for the work that you put out in the world. You're so prolific, it's crazy to think of all the work that you got going on and I'm inspired by action. Action is, I don't know, just it's how much work you put out in the world. I think you touch a lot of people. Thank you so much for being a guest. We will rally around you and your work. And until next time for on behalf of Morgan and myself to everyone out there in internet land and in your ears. And if you're watching us on video, I want to say thank you very much. And until next time we bid you a due.

Morgan Harper Nichols: Yes, thank you.